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Does war bring peace?

topic posted Tue, August 31, 2004 - 9:46 AM by  Unsubscribed
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I'm curious to hear opinions.
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Does war bring peace?

    Tue, August 31, 2004 - 10:01 AM
    absolutely. war brings eternal peace, for lots and lots of people.
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      Re: Does war bring peace?

      Tue, August 31, 2004 - 10:13 AM
      In all history there is no war which was not hatched by the governments, the governments alone, independent of the interests of the people, to whom war is always pernicious even when successful.
      – Leo Tolstoy

      I just saw this at www.antiwar.com
  • Re: Does war bring peace?

    Tue, August 31, 2004 - 10:40 AM
    Does war bring peace or peace bring war?

    It depends on what the natural state of man is.

    Are we pugnatious and violent warmongers who seek blood and glory, or peace loving artistic lovers who only war when all other options have been exhausted?
    • Re: Does war bring peace?

      Tue, August 31, 2004 - 11:20 AM
      Except for ending Slavery, Facism, Nazism, and Communism, War has never solved anything. Or so they say.
      I believe that man's natural state is not at rest. It is human nature to want to expand and create expand, even at the cost of others.
      • Re: Does war bring peace?

        Tue, August 31, 2004 - 11:22 AM
        Adam- with that outlook, I'm glad I'm not your backyard neighbor :P
        heh heh heh heh
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          Re: Does war bring peace?

          Tue, August 31, 2004 - 12:06 PM
          Is the object of war to force an opponent into submission of one's agenda? Or is it to create a solution that is good for all?

          Surrender usually is addressed with penalty, which often causes hardship for the defeated. I can't imagine that leading to a decrease in venom.
          • Re: Does war bring peace?

            Tue, August 31, 2004 - 12:30 PM
            The object of war is to force the oponent into submission.
            The object of negotiation is to create a solution benefitial to all. If one is at war- negotiation has broken down.

            Regarding surrenders- total capitulation is seen with distain in several societies- ours included; while concessions that are cornerstones of a peace agreement are seen as masterful, heroic and mature.
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            Re: Does war bring peace?

            Wed, September 8, 2004 - 2:35 AM
            Forcing your enemy into submission is the goal.
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              Re: Does war bring peace?

              Wed, September 8, 2004 - 7:34 AM
              Fatal,

              But does forcing your enemy into submission achieve true peace? What in your views is true peace?
              • Re: Does war bring peace?

                Wed, September 8, 2004 - 7:59 AM
                Eric... Great question!
                Is peace the absense of war or the presence of harmony?

                Hmmm..... What would the wise philopher Yogi Berra say about this one?
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                Re: Does war bring peace?

                Thu, September 9, 2004 - 11:14 PM
                A Police State brings peace to those that are policing. So yes.. I believe that.
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                  Re: Does war bring peace?

                  Fri, September 10, 2004 - 8:22 AM
                  Fatal,

                  Will you explain please? I'm not sure we have a similiar definition for peace. Is absense of violence peace?

                  Let's say that in a police state there are riots? Where is there a police state that is peaceful. It's a very interesting concept that you bring up, I just don't think it really applies effectively to peace.
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                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                    Sun, September 12, 2004 - 10:00 PM
                    I'm going to have to get back to you on this Eric. Direct it in another post or remind me in a day or two.
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            Re: Does war bring peace?

            Sat, October 9, 2004 - 9:31 PM
            " Is the object of war to force an opponent into submission of one's agenda? Or is it to create a solution that is good for all? "

            First I would have to consider if one side was being offensive or being defensive. If it's offensive then it equates an attempt at oppression.
            If it's defensive then one side is struggling for their rights.

            Of course you have those total "grey area's" like the West Bank where the boundries are in utter chaos so things are in no way this simple.
        • Re: Does war bring peace?

          Tue, August 31, 2004 - 2:47 PM
          I'm not for war without cause. but each nation is a living entity and i believe has the right to protect itself as such.
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            Re: Does war bring peace?

            Tue, August 31, 2004 - 2:52 PM
            Does protecting oneself equal war though? Can war be avoided by partnership??
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              Re: Does war bring peace?

              Tue, August 31, 2004 - 2:53 PM
              I know that is an ideal, but I think that wars are a product of shortsightedness and testosterone
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                Re: Does war bring peace?

                Tue, August 31, 2004 - 6:44 PM
                i disagree. shortsightedness and testosterone gives you the pamplona bull run and drunken brawls. wars are much more complex - they require a high level of social coordination and mobilization. that's why the roots must be social, not just personal. howard zinn has a brilliant chapter on war in his book "declarations of independence", where he attributes war to authoritarian social systems.
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                  Re: Does war bring peace?

                  Tue, August 31, 2004 - 10:06 PM
                  Uri,

                  Look at George Bush's strategy in Iraq and tell me about complexity and war. This war is not social, and is possibly a very personal assault/crusade against the Arab world.
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                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                    Tue, August 31, 2004 - 10:08 PM
                    And Uri, I don't think Americans know anything about the history of Iraq or who the Iraqi people are.

                    When I say testosterone, I mean this, how many times have you heard people suggest that because we have the most power (biggest penis) we can do whatever we want around the world.

                    You know what I meant
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                      Re: Does war bring peace?

                      Fri, September 24, 2004 - 4:16 AM
                      Iraq as a state was set up by the British along with Trans-Jordana ( Jordan ) if you were wondering ....
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                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                    Wed, September 1, 2004 - 7:13 AM
                    but george bush isn't in iraq fighting - 100,000 other americans are, and other coalition forces (is that the number? it's from memory). most of those soldiers probably don't want to be there. a few of soldiers might want to be there and are running on testosterone. but they're an organized force, fighting thousands of miles from their homes. how did they get there and why are they in that particular location? why are huge numbers of people fighting in a war that they have no interest in? these questions have social answers: people with power want them to be there and fighting and organized them to do so. if it all boiled down to testosterone, it would be individual, disorganized violence. there would be no army, and nobody would go half a world away to kill and be killed.
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                      Re: Does war bring peace?

                      Fri, September 24, 2004 - 4:18 AM
                      Marketing can also kill. "My people, we have an evil agressor over yonder. We must as a just people, wipe them out and show them the error of there ways." Raucous Applause. Hundreds Mobilized. Battle begins.
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                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                    Wed, September 1, 2004 - 11:54 AM
                    well i don't think the war in Iraq is a good example. Bush still probably has a personal vandetta against Iraq because they tried to kill his dad. But you also have to remember most of us thought they had weapons of mass destruction and that was what the original invasion was about or at least the main reason.
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                      Re: Does war bring peace?

                      Thu, September 2, 2004 - 6:24 AM
                      i think the iraq war is a particularly *good* example, because it was so clearly against the interests of the average american, and especially the soldiers who were fighting the war. if we had had any sort of reasonable society, nobody would have gone to fight the war. if iraq had weapons of mass destruction, the irrationality of attacking it would have been much greater, because obviously there's a good chance they would have used them to inflict heavy casualties on the invading army. no matter how short-sighted someone is, or how high their testosterone level is, they don't do suicidal things like that. once again, we have to find a social, political explanation for why people participated in the war on iraq.

                      to emphasize: it's not about bush, it's about the people who did the actual fighting, against their own interests.
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                        Re: Does war bring peace?

                        Sat, October 9, 2004 - 9:44 PM
                        "well i don't think the war in Iraq is a good example. Bush still probably has a personal vandetta against Iraq because they tried to kill his dad. But you also have to remember most of us thought they had weapons of mass destruction and that was what the original invasion was about or at least the main reason."

                        You know I hear this all the time, but I dissagree. I think we americans in general were on a pretty good patriotic high, for a while there, all running around with flags and war paint. We were stonned flat out, and we had the pushers... Bush sucker punched us for his personal agenda and we let him - but I digress.
            • Re: Does war bring peace?

              Tue, August 31, 2004 - 4:44 PM
              War can be avoided with one group by partnership, but what about the people that aren't part of the partnership? Perfect example of that is Israel. Had Israel been founded in the Sudan, there might have been less problems, but the Mediterranean coast was where they chose to be, and the Arab world has been trying to push them into the sea ever since. There is an expression in hebrew. The transliterated expression is En Brera--No Choice. It's the best incentive around.
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                Re: Does war bring peace?

                Tue, August 31, 2004 - 6:50 PM
                israel *is* a pretty good example, but for the opposite reason. the arab world has repeatedly indicated its willingness to accept israel and accommodate it in many ways if israel let the palestinians be. the most recent expression of this is in the arab league's peace proposal of march 2002, which israel responded to by sharply escalating its brutality against the palestinians. "eyn breira" is true for the palestinians, though. as eqbal ahmad put it - the palestinians surrendered to israel, but israel rejected the surrender. it's hard to characterize the palestintian struggle as a "war", though, because it's so disorganized and unfocused and nonviolent.
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                Re: Does war bring peace?

                Tue, August 31, 2004 - 10:16 PM
                Adam,

                Saying there is no choice is an excuse. There are always alternatives. Did Israel have a choice regarding the continued and illegal development of new settlements in the West Bank and Gaza??? Israel is not the victim, they are a major part of the problem, and have more resources available and choices available than the Palestinians have.

                There has been no mutually good faith effort at compromise. Hearing you say that the Arab world has been trying to push Israel into the sea makes me feel like you see that as an excuse to be combative against them. Israel certainly does not show much interest in a productive neighbor with a dynamic mutually beneficial economic future.

                Yunno, there was a Palestine before Zionism. There we people there before 1948. One history might deny that, but there is another history that supports it.
                • Re: Does war bring peace?

                  Wed, September 1, 2004 - 4:53 AM
                  Eric-

                  I think this is a terrific illustration of an argument against your point that wars are simply overblown cock-fights.

                  They are complex in both cause and escalation, and there are a billion different view points on either side of it.

                  Also- as far as people (Americans) saying "we can do whatever we want around the world." That's just famous American ethnocentrism for you. It's not accurate, nor is it shared by people outside what Political Scientists commonly refer to as the "Whack-job Demographic" :)
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                  Re: Does war bring peace?

                  Wed, September 1, 2004 - 7:17 AM
                  but leaving the israel case aside as a bad example, wouldn't you agree that in some cases there is no choice? what other options did the iraqis have?
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                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                    Wed, September 1, 2004 - 11:27 AM
                    Uri,

                    I guess I would say that we have a right to defend ourselves in an attack. The Iraqi people certainly are not the ones who started this war on the own land.

                    There is a difference between conflict and resistence.

                    I would never suggest that when attacked anyone should simply sit by and be victimized.

                    I guess I'm hedging a bit.
      • Re: Does war bring peace?

        Wed, September 1, 2004 - 12:55 AM
        Adam is right. War is in human nature. Whether we want to accept it or not. All societies have fought in wars.
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          Re: Does war bring peace?

          Wed, September 1, 2004 - 7:25 AM
          most societies have fought in wars (i'm not sure about all. did the tasmanians or the chatham islanders fight wars?), but that doesn't mean it's human nature. i personally feel absolutely no desire to ever fight in a war, and so do many others, and we're not pathological human beings. i would argue, like howard zinn, that wars are created by particular social conditions - that in authoritarian societies where one group of people can manipulate and mobilize others, war is an expected outcome. whereas in a free society, war would be much harder to organize, because we would recognize that fighting in a war is not in our self-interest, and we would have the social power to not sacrifice on other people's behalf.
          • Re: Does war bring peace?

            Wed, September 1, 2004 - 9:52 AM
            You realize of course that Israel's troubles didn't start with the Gaza Strip or the West Bank. Israel's problems started right when it was founded in 1948. The Arab world was well backed by the Soviets, afterall.
            The West Bank issues were only fuel to the fire. If you want a reason to fight, or blame the other person for instigating something, chances are you will find it.
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              Re: Does war bring peace?

              Wed, September 1, 2004 - 11:34 AM
              Adam,

              You're right, Israel's problems are partially caused by the Balfour Declaration and a third parties decision to allow Jews to go to that area of the world. There were already people living there!!!!

              Is it threatening to you for Israel to be an equal partner in the problems we are seeing now?? Do you see Israel and being inclusive or exclusive in it's relationship with the Palestinian people?? Why do you think so many Israeli and American Jews are protesting the treatment of the Palestinians??

              Adam, you're very intelligent person, there is no debating that. All I ask you to do is consider a broader view. Read some of Edward Said's work, there is a great interview with David Barsamian discussing the relationship between the oppressed and the oppressors in Palestine/Israel.

              Let's keep communicating about this, I know I have a lot to learn also.
              • Re: Does war bring peace?

                Wed, September 1, 2004 - 12:14 PM
                Eric,

                Thanks for the compliment. I try not to be one sided in the Israel/Palestine argument, and in all reality, I'm for a two state solution.
                I believe that Israel should and has taken responsablitiy for their role in the conflict,and in all reality are being inclusive in their relatioship with the Palestinan people. I'm not singling anyone nation out. Israel depends a lot on the Palestinians for the labor force and financial benefits. The Palestinans benefit from a top education system, among other things. War, is unavoidable as I see it, but it is never a pleasant thing, for either side. Neither side looks forward to sending their children into battle, not sure if they will return.
                Gold Meir, the former Prime Minister of Israel, after Levi Eshkol, famously said,"The conflict between the Arabs and the Jews will be over, when they start to love their children more than they hate Israel".
                The way I see it, Israel was in Palestine's position 50 years ago. The Balfour declaration was just the political paper that allowed the Jewish people to return to their biblical homeland. The Jewish people have felt a connection there for 5000 years and that in itself seemed a good reason to fight for the land.
                It's funny you mention Edward Said. He came out to speak here at Stanford (or Berkeley) not too long ago. I went to hear him speak and i found myself agreeing with a lot of what he had to say.
                It is clearly not a black and white situation.
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                  Re: Does war bring peace?

                  Thu, September 2, 2004 - 6:53 AM
                  adam, do you realize how extraordinarily racist the quote you cited is? do you realize that israel was set up by europeans allied with the imperialist powers? that the declaration of israel's establishment was accompanied by massive "ethnic cleansing"? and that these things may have something to do with why palestinians and other arabs hate israel? are you aware that israel's regime in the occupied territories is so brutal that people who have lived through apartheid in south africa, most recently mahatma gandhi's grandson, keep saying that the palestinians experience is worse than the black south african experience?

                  there are no black and white situations in the real world. the nazi holocaust wasn't black and white either, but that doesn't mean you have to see the nazi side of things.
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                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                    Thu, September 2, 2004 - 9:05 AM
                    Racist? No, I don't think so, Uri. Gold Meir wasn't talking about the Palestinians, don't forget. This was well before that conflict had deepened. It still applies though.
                    Arafat proved it, 10 times over. When Barak was PM of Israel he essentially gave Palestine all that they wanted, 97% of all the requests. Everything except for Jerusalem. Arafat refused.
                    Arafat has shown again and again that he is not interested in peace (Nobel prize or not), but rather the continued aggrevation of the Jewish State.
                    In all honesty, I think both sides want peace. Is Israel willing to give up their homeland for peace? No. Maybe that's the sticky wicket in the conflict?
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                      Re: Does war bring peace?

                      Thu, September 2, 2004 - 2:39 PM

                      "When Barak was PM of Israel he essentially gave Palestine all that they wanted, 97% of all the requests. Everything except for Jerusalem. Arafat refused."

                      this is a common point of view, but every serious study of camp david that i've seen disputes it. i've been asking people for years to show me evidence for this claim, and i've been looking at what's been presented. none of them even come close to making the case.

                      "Is Israel willing to give up their homeland for peace? No. Maybe that's the sticky wicket in the conflict?"

                      the PLO, the arab states, and pretty much the whole world outside of israel and the US agree on the two state solution: the west bank, gaza strip and east jerusalem for the palestinians, the rest of historic palestine for israel. a lot of people, including myself, think that's far from ideal, and maybe even unacceptable, but it's the palestinians who have accepted it and israel that rejects it.
                      • Re: Does war bring peace?

                        Thu, September 2, 2004 - 3:01 PM
                        Uri,

                        I think we've moved from the philisophical part of the discussion and more into the socio-political aspects of the conflict in the Holy Land.
                        Why don't we agree to disagree for now. If anything, I think we can both agree that war does not bring peace, no matter where you are in the world.
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                          Re: Does war bring peace?

                          Thu, September 2, 2004 - 3:07 PM
                          i'm willing to back away from this particular conflict (it seems to arise in every tribe i belong to - coincidence?). i wouldn't grant that war doesn't *ever* bring peace. like i've been saying, sometimes war is appropriate and might contribute to greater peace.
                          • Re: Does war bring peace?

                            Thu, September 2, 2004 - 3:12 PM
                            Well, if the Israelies and the Arabs can't have a truce, at least we can.
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                              Re: Does war bring peace?

                              Thu, September 2, 2004 - 3:30 PM
                              the big east coast vs. west coast war is over. now i'm going to have to log off - i spent so much time on tribe that i'll have to skip hooking up with my marxist comrades. now, no sneak attacks while i'm away from tribe, okay?
          • Re: Does war bring peace?

            Wed, September 1, 2004 - 10:42 PM
            Tasmania was part of the Britsh empire right? I am sure there troops sent from their to fight in WWII. the reason why we feel that we don't want to go to war is that we don't there is a reason that will prompt us to go to war. Is there anything that you consider worth fighting for? Especially if the other side is firm in their stance? Is there really such a thing as a free society. There will always be haves and have nots.
            • Re: Does war bring peace?

              Thu, September 2, 2004 - 5:05 AM
              "Is there really such a thing as a free society. There will always be haves and have nots."

              That division of haves and have nots is a corner stone of free society.

              In a free society- what do you have the freedom to do? To make your own choices- to master your own destiny. Sure- you have huge responsibilities to the state (as per the Rousseau Social Contract, for example), but by and large you have the decision to make for yourself on how you want to live your life.

              Part of that decision will be whether you will be a have, or a have not. Make no mistake- it is a decision, and sure- it's easier for some than others to be a have- but in the end; if you're commited to your decision, and relentless in your pursuit of it- then you'll have no time to whine about how the odds are stacked against you. Also- you'll realize the odds are stacked against everyone. Success is hard work! If it was easy- everyone would be driving around in Mercedes and VP of a Corporate Power running sub 3 hour marathons and writing epic novels.

              The fact is- in the end- you have the choice to make whether you want to be a have or a have not.
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                Re: Does war bring peace?

                Thu, September 2, 2004 - 6:42 AM
                are you kidding, mike? if you think the option of being a have is available to anybody, i'd say you have no familiarity with poverty in the US or canada, or else you're in massive denial. read a book about it, like barbara ehrenreich's "nickled and dimed", or jeremy seabrook's "caste, class and hierarchies", or talk to poor people about their experiences. you'll find that our society is structured on a class system that is reinforced at every turn, in order to prevent people who are born poor from escaping poverty. that's why so many people have spent their entire lives struggling to get out of it without success.
                • Re: Does war bring peace?

                  Thu, September 2, 2004 - 7:14 AM
                  Urito-

                  Just because I see things differently from you doesn't mean I'm not familair with the situation.

                  I could equally suggest that perhaps you're the one who's naive about the situation, but that would not solve anything in this disagreement- It's more likely that I just have a different understanding of the situation.
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                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                    Thu, September 2, 2004 - 2:41 PM
                    hey mike - are you familiar with the situation? if you are aware of all the barriers to social advancement, how would you argue that economic station is a choice?
                    • Re: Does war bring peace?

                      Thu, September 2, 2004 - 2:47 PM
                      Uri-

                      Economic station is the result of success. Success is a choice.
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                        Re: Does war bring peace?

                        Thu, September 2, 2004 - 2:51 PM
                        explain.
                        • Re: Does war bring peace?

                          Thu, September 2, 2004 - 3:04 PM
                          100% of people who are successful are that way because they have made the choice to be successful.

                          Of course there are obstacles to it- and some people defenitely have more obstacles than others- but it is accessible if someone has the tools and the knowledge to learn what they do not know.

                          Common obstacles to success is simply that people want it- but have no clue how to go about to get it.
                          Others are that they are too proud to get the help they need when they are starting out.
                          Others still just want success on their own terms in their own way- Opportunity doesn't conform to your needs- you have to conform to it's. If you want to make money- you have to seek out the product to sell in a location that doesn't have that product- you can't force success by trying to sell Pepsi to coke drinkers. You have to introduce them to Orange Juice if they've never had Orange Juice- amd then sell them prezels to go with their Soda and Orange juice!

                          If some one is living in the ghetto and wants success all they have to do is go to a bank and say "I want to open a business. Can you help me?" and chances are- the banker will not only help them- she/he will give them invaluable information for small business owners, and sense of hope. It's not really congruent with your view of the world where money and success are evil- but it seems to work for most people.

                          Ps. that banker will probably be the one to give you a line of credit to open your business when you're ready to get things off the ground.
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                            Re: Does war bring peace?

                            Thu, September 2, 2004 - 3:27 PM
                            "100% of people who are successful are that way because they have made the choice to be successful."

                            yes, but that's not the relevant statistic. what percentage of people who have made the choice to be successful *are* successful? from what i've interpreted, you say 100%. i think much less.

                            "but it is accessible if someone has the tools and the knowledge to learn what they do not know."

                            but not everybody has the tools and the knowledge - that's part of what it means to be a have-not.

                            "Common obstacles to success is simply that people want it- but have no clue how to go about to get it.
                            Others are that they are too proud to get the help they need when they are starting out.
                            Others still just want success on their own terms in their own way- Opportunity doesn't conform to your needs- you have to conform to it's."

                            agreed.

                            "If some one is living in the ghetto and wants success all they have to do is go to a bank and say "I want to open a business. Can you help me?" and chances are- the banker will not only help them- she/he will give them invaluable information for small business owners, and sense of hope."

                            if the anecdotes are right, the banker will in the large majority of cases decline, politely explaining that it doesn't seem like a sound investment. i'll bet the statistics bear out the anecdotes, too. i would look in manning marable's "how capitalism underdeveloped black america", but i think i gave my copy away.

                            "It's not really congruent with your view of the world where money and success are evil- but it seems to work for most people."

                            you're sounding like a randroid, mike. say it ain't so! in my view of the world, money and success are very good things. i'm always striving for more money and more success (but i don't define success exclusively in terms of money).

                            "Ps. that banker will probably be the one to give you a line of credit to open your business when you're ready to get things off the ground."

                            that won't be necessary - my parents own a business and are getting close to retirement age. (PS, mike, i noticed you're from toronto - gemini printing in markham is there for all your printing needs; they specialize in judaica - invitations for simchas, benchers, etc. excellent customer service. just don't tell my parents what i've been writing about palestine on tribe, or that there are pictures of me in a dress online - they get severe heartache over these things. they'd be especially appalled that i look so good in it.)
                            • Re: Does war bring peace?

                              Thu, September 2, 2004 - 5:23 PM
                              "from what i've interpreted, you say 100%. i think much less."

                              No- I would never make such a preposterous statement :) I personally know at least 80 people who want success and are so hungry for it- it hurts, but their big flaw- they want it on their terms, they want it without the discipline of building it, and they want it without having to put themselves out for it.

                              "if the anecdotes are right, the banker will in the large majority of cases decline, politely explaining that it doesn't seem like a sound investment."

                              If the person wants it- and has done their homework and due dilligence with the information the banker gave them- they draw up a trio set business plan with strong financials and provide incontrivertable evidence that this plan will work! How do they find out what a trio set is? The same way I learned- I went to the library? How do you find out what makes a great business plan? The same way I did- I asked and I looked it up at the library.

                              "in my view of the world, money and success are very good things"
                              Sorry- I was interpreting your statements as money=bad. :)

                              I've known several Small and Medium sized business owners who had very meager beginnings- they worked their own ways through Univeristy to get their law degrees, or openned a hair salon- then another one and are now own a successful chain of salons and a line of salon products in development all because they took the initial meeting with the banker and actually read the material, took the advice, asked questions, and did the leg work.

                              All that anyone wants is a business plan with strong financials and sound reasoning. If you have that- institutions generally offer debt financing.

                              If you're looking for Private investment on the other hand- that's where you need to be a rich jew from the good family who went to school with Mr.Moneybag's daughter. :D LOL
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                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                    Fri, September 3, 2004 - 12:01 AM
                    I think you both make valid points. It is incredibly hard for a have not to become a have. But it is possible. My dad lived in poverty in India but somehow he was able to work his way to were he is now. I think it just depends on the situation.
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                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                    Fri, September 3, 2004 - 12:02 AM
                    I think you both make valid points. It is incredibly hard for a have not to become a have. But it is possible. My dad lived in poverty in India but somehow he was able to work his way to were he is now. I think it just depends on the situation. But the truth is that in society there will be people on the top and on the bottom. Its our animal nature. But that doesn't mean someone from that bottom with a little elbow grease could make it to the top.
                    • Re: Does war bring peace?

                      Fri, September 3, 2004 - 4:39 AM
                      That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that there is no have nots- I'm just saying that being a have is a choice that people make.

                      I think it's also easy for people to slip from being haves to have nots. I know many people, as well as many stories of people who were born into quite well to do families, and through bad decisions, sloth or bad luck- they lost it all.
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                      Re: Does war bring peace?

                      Fri, September 3, 2004 - 7:40 AM
                      i'm not all thta clear about what we're arguing about. but i think what michael is saying is that anyone who makes the decision to be successful and is persistent and hard-working in pursuit of it will be successful. i'm skeptical. i'm not denying that it's possible, i'm just skeptical that it's generally applicable. i also know people who started off with very little money and became economically successful, but they all started off with a lot of advantages: a high school education, stable families, community support, white skin. i know there are people who don't have these things who became successful, but it can be really rally hard, and i think for some people it might be impossible. michael talks about going to the library and doing research in order to impress the banker - what about people who can't read? what about people who don't have time for the research because they have to work 60-hour weeks to make ends meet? what about people who may have the organizational skills to start a business but can't impress the banker because they are immigrants who can't speak english very well, or blacks who speak black english but can't represent themselves well in white english? what about people with physical disabilities or emotional disturbances, or people who have a criminal record, or single mothers, or people with speech impediments? they may very well be denied loans based on prejudice alone, without regard for their level of knowledge.
                      • Re: Does war bring peace?

                        Fri, September 3, 2004 - 7:59 AM
                        "i'm just skeptical that it's generally applicable"

                        Of course you're skeptical! Everyone is! They think that success is this magical thing that evades people.

                        You come out with a list of things that are obstacles towards people being successful-

                        Like i said- It takes tools- and it takes conforming to what the demands of success are.

                        We're arguing the same things here.
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                  Re: Does war bring peace?

                  Fri, September 24, 2004 - 4:32 AM
                  To be honest, I would have to tend to agree with you on this point. The social system seems rather akward (Spelt that right ???) to me in the US you do not have a social system to help escape bad times.
                  Please note this is an Australian/Europeans opinion.
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              Re: Does war bring peace?

              Thu, September 2, 2004 - 6:30 AM
              "Tasmania was part of the Britsh empire right? I am sure there troops sent from their to fight in WWII."

              i meant the indigenous tasmanian society, the one that was wiped out by the british in the 19th century.

              "Is there anything that you consider worth fighting for?"

              sure, given the present arrangement of the world, there are many wars i would support, like wars of liberation, defensive wars and wars to stop massive atrocities, when those are absolutely necessary, and when fought in a way that will minimize the atrocities (as opposed to e.g. NATO's war against serbia, which predictably led to an escalation in atrocities).

              "There will always be haves and have nots."

              that's really pessimistic!
              • Re: Does war bring peace?

                Thu, September 2, 2004 - 8:46 AM
                Wha?? Uri, I agree with you on almost everything, but I'm stunned that you think the war against Serbia was a bad idea. I worked settling Bosnian refugees during the early 90's and based on the stories they had to tell, I honestly believe the Serbs had to be stopped by force. Our biggest sin was not getting in there in the spring of 1993 with massive force to stop the massacres and the "ethnic cleansing" (aka genocide). Really. As a jew I'd think you'd be more sympathetic to the need to stop genocide early, rather than let it run its course.
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                  Re: Does war bring peace?

                  Thu, September 2, 2004 - 11:20 AM
                  Ben,

                  Maybe he means that the idea of military intervention was good, but the actual strategy and planning were not effective. I don't know about that conflict, just presenting a possible misperception of his statement.

                  Uri can you explain?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                    Thu, September 2, 2004 - 2:31 PM
                    maybe me and ben are talking about different conflicts or phases of the conflict. i'm talking about 1999, when the serbian government was committing atrocities against kosovo - a situation that's kind of similar to israel and palestine, in my opinion - terror and counterterror - and which should have been solved through diplomacy, just like the israel/palestine conflict should be solved through diplomacy, not massive bombing of israel. after NATO launched a bombing war, the serbian government dramatically stepped up its atrocities. it would have been much better to leave it alone, in my opinion, and even better to solve it through diplomacy or by supporting the democratic opposition in serbia.

                    there were earlier conflicts that i know very little about, because they date back earlier than the beginning of my political activity, but from what i understand, there was genocidal conflict between serbs and croats and bosnians. is that what you're talking about, ben, or are we talking about the serbia/KLA situation? in principle, as i've mentioned, stopping genocide is one of the few uses of war that i consider legitimate - but i also think it's a last resort.
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                      Re: Does war bring peace?

                      Thu, September 2, 2004 - 2:50 PM
                      i should add: yes, as a jew, whose grandparents all survived concentration camps, and many of whose other relatives didn't survive, i definitely support using force to nip genocide in the bud. but the case *has* to be made that use of force will help stop genocide and not aggravate it, that there aren't means that would be more effective than war.
                      • Re: Does war bring peace?

                        Thu, September 2, 2004 - 2:52 PM
                        "means that would be more effective than war"

                        Like economic sanctions- those have worked well to keep Sino Communists in line... right? right???
                        • Unsu...
                           

                          Re: Does war bring peace?

                          Thu, September 2, 2004 - 3:04 PM
                          sanctions might work sometimes. they were important in bringing down south african apartheid, at least according to the conventional story. the point is there's a whole range of options, ranging from harsh words to nukes, that can be used - it's not a dichotomy of either war or noninvolvement. there are many alternatives to air raids and ground invasions that are not just less violent but might be more effective. sanctions might be appropriate in some cases, international peacekeepers might be appropriate in others, supporting internal opposition in others, threats in others. iraq, for example, succumbed to threats and allowed inspection teams in to look for weapons of mass destruction. if WMD had been the real reason for the war, then it would have been accomplished by the threat of violence without any actual violence.
                          • Unsu...
                             

                            Re: Does war bring peace?

                            Fri, September 24, 2004 - 4:54 AM
                            Its amazing how puppet states/militia set up by the all knowing all seeing US govt have come back to bit them in the arse in Spectacular fashion. Vietminh : mcadams.posc.mu.edu/prouty_arms.htm
                            Taliban, Iraqi state. to name three main ones. More will arise.

                            War generally is not about justice, it is about the economic and strategic value of a weaker nations position and location. Be it, it's mineral wealth, potential wealth and or to fuck the guys next door off. I would have to agree with Mr Uri here on this fact that nations will not attack another if there is a considerable "REAL" threat. it seems the only way you can keep the hounds from the doors of your state these days is to have WMD and not be afraid to use them. After all the threat Total Annihilation is one way to get people to talk. So what happens when Bush Snr's Magic Ballistic Missile Defense Crap is completed then and that threat is removed from the US. BECAUSE IT IS HAPPENING. Are we back to square one or just moving the "waving the bone at the other monkeys." policy to a new level??
                            Australia will be buying Mobile versions of this crap and Japan is helping to develop it. So I say , instead of solving the debt, hunger and general fucked up situations in this world. PUMP MORE MONEY INTO THE MILITARY..thats an answer
                            Thats me done for the week..
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                              Re: Does war bring peace?

                              Fri, September 24, 2004 - 6:13 AM
                              "Its amazing how puppet states/militia set up by the all knowing all seeing US govt have come back to bit them in the arse in Spectacular fashion. Vietminh : mcadams.posc.mu.edu/prouty_arms.htm
                              Taliban, Iraqi state. to name three main ones."

                              you missed the most spectacular example: al qaeda.
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                                Re: Does war bring peace?

                                Wed, September 29, 2004 - 7:01 AM
                                I am an Armchair REVOLUTIONARY to be honest so I only go as far as I know...

                                How was Al Qaeda set up by them ??
                                • Unsu...
                                   

                                  Re: Does war bring peace?

                                  Wed, September 29, 2004 - 1:58 PM
                                  well, not exactly al-qaeda proper, but the people who later became the founders of al-qaeda were largely recruited, trained and armed by the CIA in the early 1980s to terrorize the soviets, who were then invading afghanistan. the US was apparently also behind reviving the concept of "jihad" as violent struggle, which had been dead for centuries. all this stuff is summarized in a great little book: "terrorism: theirs and ours" by eqbal ahmad. not sure what the scholarly references are.
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                                    Re: Does war bring peace?

                                    Thu, September 30, 2004 - 2:55 AM
                                    Huh, Its amazing how people use these sorts of struggles to play one off another for there own benefit isn't it. I think the whole "Sure, let them kill themselves." attituded is prevalent ( had to use Word spell check on that one, lol)

                                    Have you seen the DVD version of City of God......there is an interview with the CHief of Police of Rio (Brazil) about the favelas and the gangs. he makes some truths, Regarding the Weapons manufactures, Both sides of the Atlantic, Germans , USA , French etc. which are core to most issues.

                                    In the end I think nothing will change unless people are willing to either stand up as a majority and say enough of this crap and or work withing the system to bring about change. George Monbiot has some valid points in Age of Consent.

                                    What to do, What to do........
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                                      Re: Does war bring peace?

                                      Thu, September 30, 2004 - 7:29 PM
                                      "What to do, What to do........"

                                      marx would say, "build a revolutionary proletarian party to smash the capitalist state". i think there's a lot of merit in that position.
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                                        Re: Does war bring peace?

                                        Tue, October 5, 2004 - 3:16 AM
                                        Ha ha ha ha , Sure by the time we get organized they would have files and photos of the lot of us and our family.

                                        The latest thing in Ireland, from the Sunday Times. About how the Swedish Journalist had discovered this Lear jet that starts in the US stops at Dallas passes through Shannon Airport of to the Middle East and them spots to collect Prisoners and return them to the states.

                                        After two Swedish nationals were snatched from in the country and one was tortured then freed the other sentenced to 25years by US officials.

                                        This just keeps getting better and better.
  • Re: Does war bring peace?

    Sun, March 26, 2006 - 7:34 PM
    Read your history text books of school until they are not manupliated.Why war.Argument with your spouse or neighbour ,has it bought any peace,it is other thing that you won argument cos you had powerful argumentation technique or physcially stronger then them.
    Think? think like a human and not has a politican or intrested party.Think what will be consequences if you were on other side .
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Does war bring peace?

    Sun, April 9, 2006 - 2:54 PM
    If war brought peace, we would be enjoying peace already. For thousands of years, civilizations have dedicated themselves to military strength and conquest.

    Peace comes from Love. Oppression comes from War.

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